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Clinica San Jose Rumors  Rate Topic 
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 Posted: Wed Jun 5th, 2019 05:12 pm
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Vince Radice
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Bullshipper wrote: Vinnie
Do you know how many registered voters are in SC? Do you know the actual current minimum number of registed mexican adults is required? I was guessing at 2-3 thousand, tops.


I used to operate in San Javier, a small municipality of about 4,0000 pop when you also include Tecoripa, La Barranca that are within its limits. Anyways, this has been a municipality for over 100 years, so perhaps the minimums were different that current law.

Weren't you advocating a vote on this last fall too? What happend? Was misinformation the problem?

I would also like to understand how someone can get away not paying property taxes. Every piece of property that I have bought had to pay the city and all other encumbrances prior to or through the proceeds held by the notary. These included adjustments for inflation and interest on the balance. No city registar will record and legalize new title's as far as I know.


Can we assume that you are not paying your prediales?


Juan Carlos has all the data, there are around 1700 registered voters if I recall, but it could be a bit higher than that. It could be over 2,000. 


There are no property tax police in Mexico. If you don't pay they just send you a nasty letter that you can ignore. The law in Mexico is nothing like the law in the states. Now if you have a infonavit property then that might be different but Americans do not qualify for Infonavit. You see poor Mexicans can not have their property taken out from under them because they were to poor to pay a property tax although in some instances like infonavit there are probably exceptions. Now you can not sell your property or transfer title if the taxes are not paid. That is why rich mexicans who own lots of properties don't pay taxes on them until they are going to be sold. As I mentioned earlier. Then when they are ready to sell the property they go to the Palacio and offer a full payment but they negotiate a reduced rate because they offer to pay in full. It is standard operating procedure here. 


What I advocate for is that Mexicans and Americans & Canadians work together to make San Carlos it's own Municipio. Imagine if we had 170 million pesos every year to spend on infrastructure. 


Security is a big issue right? Can you imagine bilingual police and zero tolerance for corruption and cameras on all the major intersections coming into town? 


I understand the non profit's like Clean Up San Carlos and this new Foundation and why they do what they do. But in a sense they are simply empowering shitty governance by doing the job of the city. The Mex politicians love those organizations because now Guaymas doesn't have to deal with their responsibility of providing those public services that have already been paid for via taxes. It is really quite a catch 22 in a sense.


If this town were not full of Expat's paying their property taxes and becoming the cash cow of Guaymas then Guaymas would care much less about San Carlos. Guaymas would become indifferent to San Carlos if it were not for the money that is generated. 


I know most Americans and Canadians would be terrified to not pay their property taxes so thus it is unrealistic to see them use their economic clout to get Guaymas to give us the public services we are entitled to by law. 


One thing our group proposed, and this only works if a lot of people do it obviously, is to send a letter to the Mayor and state that this year all of us are going to pay our property taxes into a trust. When an agreement is reached between Guaymas and the Trustees then the money would be liberated to Guaymas and the money would be spend on what ever the agreement was. In Mexico this is called a CONVENIO and they are used all the time.


I doubt that anyone could get enough Expat's on board though to make it happen. But I guarantee that Guaymas would have no choice but to agree. Remember that a Mayor is only in office for Three years and so if you cut off a year or two of revenue to them they would totally freak. It would be unprecedented, actually it would not.


There is a story about Burl Ives back in the day and how they used Gringo economic leverage to get the Condominums Pilare back into the hands of the Owners. Perhaps someone remembers the story and could tell it but in a nut shell Burl Ives threatened to go to the media and expose how the Mexicans were screwing over the locals and stealing their condos from underneath them. The government totally backed down from what I understand. Now that is a paraphrased account and as I recall there were other issues as well but perhaps someone out there could tell the story more completely. It was told to me very completely by a guy who owned a condo then but I did not take notes or interview him on camera unfortunately


San Carlos could be a really well funded Municipality with fantastic public services. Juan Carlos Gonzales , the founder of El Comittee Municipio 73 has it all worked out actually. What that group needs is more volunteers and more funding. Back when I was working with them several Americans one in particular, you know who you are, LOL, helped them fund their operation and in part that is why they are were they are today. That group needs more funding and participation by all San Carleños, foreign and domestic. 







Last edited on Wed Jun 5th, 2019 05:16 pm by Vince Radice

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 Posted: Wed Jun 5th, 2019 07:04 pm
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frankie
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Vince Radice wrote:

I now have a copy of the official San Carlos budget, it lists around 25 employees over at the Comisarios office. Ever been there? There are about 4 people that acutally work at that office. And Enrique officially has a chofer that he never knew existed.

The new mayor of Guaymas is supposed to be free from corruption because she belongs to the Morena party. It appears she didn't get the memo........




this why i am skeptical of San Carlos being it's own municipality! 
for every politician elected their is probably a half dozen bureaucrats behind them! qualified bureaucrats ARE important. where will they come from? probably from the existing pool in Guaymas!LOL! then you have the reality of NEPOTISM, which is prevalent from the bottom to the top!!  

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 Posted: Wed Jun 5th, 2019 07:32 pm
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Vince Radice
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this why i am skeptical of San Carlos being it's own municipality! 
for every politician elected their is probably a half dozen bureaucrats behind them! qualified bureaucrats ARE important. where will they come from? probably from the existing pool in Guaymas!LOL! then you have the reality of NEPOTISM, which is prevalent from the bottom to the top!!  




When San Carlos becomes it's own municipality  that doesn't mean that we won't have corrupt politicians trying to steal money or Nepotism. But this is a small town and it will be harder to hide corruption. Frankie I don't understand why you are skeptical? The Bureaucrats will come from here most likely, not from Guaymas, and it doesn't matter where they come from really. At least they will be our Bureaucrats and our Nepotists. Logically they would want to see San Carlos better off because they would own property and businesses here. And yes many of them will want to steal money from infrastructure projects like all other politicians do in Mexico. 


So I pose this question to you Frankie, honestly do you think San Carlos would be worse off? Remember that if you are a Comisaria like San Carlos you can not petition for state and federal funding for projects. San Carlos's hands as I speak are tied behind our backs because of this one fact alone. This one reason alone should be enough logically to convince you Frankie that being a municipality is better than being a comisaria. 




Being it's own municipality is not a panacea for what ails Mexican governments in general. But it is hard to imagine that San Carlos would be in a worse state if it could manage it's own finances and infrastructure. 




The fist thing I would do if I was mayor is immediately deal with the water company CEA. San Carlos could immediately take it over and since San Carlos would be a municipality it could petition for state and federal funding to fix all of the pumps and failing pipes. 


I could go on and on but I think I have made my point. Perhaps someone should start a new thread that deals specifically with the issue of Municipalization on this forum and the other one as well. 


Saludos V

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 Posted: Wed Jun 5th, 2019 07:52 pm
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frankie
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a bureaucrat should be qualified in the field they plan holding a position in! from the secretary knowing how to type and basic office skills to the engineer who should be experienced in his field, people with public administration and public works degrees!


 there is no room for partisanship or nepotism, in a properly functioning democracy!!


IMHO that is where the purging needs to begin!

Last edited on Wed Jun 5th, 2019 08:10 pm by frankie

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 Posted: Wed Jun 5th, 2019 11:13 pm
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Bullshipper
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I looked into the process on what I could find in spanish and as I understood the revised legislation of 1996 and 2005, 7000 registered voters are now required to start a new city.
That law also says that all cities charted prior to 1996 are grandfathered now matter what their umbers.

It goes on to say that you have to first get the governor or AMLO to accept the petition and project before it can be put to a vote. But it qualifies that petition as only being valid if you do not annex territory or funds that would jepordize neighboring the welfare of existing cities, namely Guaymas in our case.

Lots of ways to interpret this, but that looks to me like a clause that's could stop anyone here in their tracks over a technicality, if they want to.

Imo, the success of this will really depend on finding a Mexican family with some real political clout and dough that would benefit from this while us tourists stay out of it.

And the Beltrone's family comes to mind as a possibility for your guy to seek out, if he has not done so already.

Last edited on Wed Jun 5th, 2019 11:17 pm by Bullshipper

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 Posted: Thu Jun 6th, 2019 04:18 am
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Vince Radice
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Bullshipper wrote: I looked into the process on what I could find in spanish and as I understood the revised legislation of 1996 and 2005, 7000 registered voters are now required to start a new city.
That law also says that all cities charted prior to 1996 are grandfathered now matter what their umbers.

It goes on to say that you have to first get the governor or AMLO to accept the petition and project before it can be put to a vote. But it qualifies that petition as only being valid if you do not annex territory or funds that would jepordize neighboring the welfare of existing cities, namely Guaymas in our case.

Lots of ways to interpret this, but that looks to me like a clause that's could stop anyone here in their tracks over a technicality, if they want to.

Imo, the success of this will really depend on finding a Mexican family with some real political clout and dough that would benefit from this while us tourists stay out of it.

And the Beltrone's family comes to mind as a possibility for your guy to seek out, if he has not done so already.




If I had a buck for every time somebody mentioned the "look for a rich Mexican with Political clout option"...........LOL...........Looking for a rich Mexican with political clout and asking for a favor just perpetuates the same crap governance that you find through out Mexico. No one in San Carlos that I know who is working on this is interested in forming a government where the moment it is formed means you already owe political favors to someone the likes of Beltrones. It is a non starter because the people that I know have quite a bit of integrity. Can you imagine what Beltrones would ask for? It wouldn't be cheap that is for sure. 


Article 39 of the Mexican Constitution states clearly the rights of Mexicans, the 7000 registered voter stuff you saw is not applicable.  Just look at Municipio 72 in Sonora. San Pedro de la Cueva I think it is called. They only have like 2500 people total population and became a Municipio like 6 or 7 years ago mas o menos. I forget which Municipio they broke away from, it might have been Hermosillo and Hermosillo or who ever it was were happy to see them go. Less work for them to deal with. San Carlos of course is a different hill of beans. 


Article 68 comes into play as well but 39 is all that you need to read. 


Artículo 39.- La soberanía nacional reside esencial y originariamente en el pueblo. Todo poder público dimana del pueblo y se instituye para beneficio de éste. El pueblo tiene en todo tiempo el inalienable derecho de alterar o modificar la forma de su gobierno.



Article 39. National sovereignty is bestowed essentially and originally upon the people. Every public power derives from the people and is instituted for their benefit. The people possess, at all times, the inalienable right to alter or change their form of government.


It is absolutely true that some economic hardship could be brought to Guaymas. Mostly the hardship would be to corrupt politicians who could no longer easily steal money from San Carlos. But it would be a complete stretch to say that Guaymas would some how be jeopardized by San Carlos breaking away.
]

With that said much thought has been put into that. San Carlos could continue to send many millions of pesos a year to Guaymas over a period of several years as a negotiating tool to say look. We understand you all will loose some cash but we are willing to mitigate that by funding you for 3 or 4 years as we become our own Municipio. But no matter what we are leaving because number 1. you have been screwing us for years and number 2. it is our unalienable right to do so based on the constitution.

Lawyers from the supreme court have looked over the paper work. They were impressed with it. Legally we have established that Guaymas has denied San Carlos it's rights and services required by law.



In the end though ,Article 39 and a bunch of residents who demand it be enacted is all that is needed. Especially since we have spent the last 5 years documenting all the frauds and illegalities that Guaymas have perpetuated on San Carlos.


With all that said it takes money too. Trips to  Guayms trips to Hermosillo, trips to Mexico City. Every single document gets stamps, and lots of them....LOL....we all know how Mexican bureaucrats love stamps. 


IMHO what it really takes is a rich person who isn't asking for political favors to donate to the brave individuals who have tirelessly worked on this for years! 




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Last edited on Thu Jun 6th, 2019 04:25 am by Vince Radice

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 Posted: Thu Jun 6th, 2019 06:38 pm
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Bullshipper
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Good luck Vince is all I can say.

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 Posted: Fri Jun 7th, 2019 01:48 pm
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RichD
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Seems like the municipio of San Pedro de la Cueva was established in 1932 according to the internet and you know everything is true on the internet. This is the area around El Novillo where many Americans have places where they store bass boats. Anyway, I still do not understand the process for establishing a new municipio. What are the steps and who has to approve?  Is the process that Bullshipper listed incorrect?  It seems pointless to talk about the advantages for San Carlos if it can't be done.  

Last edited on Fri Jun 7th, 2019 02:02 pm by RichD

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 Posted: Wed Jun 19th, 2019 12:56 am
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amigo2
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This thread has gotten a little off the original topic, But, IMHO, Vince is making an extremely important point regarding the future of San Carlos : San Carlos needs to be it's own municipality and not the golden goose for Guaymas.... if we are ever going to improve our infrastructure with the taxes we pay.....our tax dollars SHOULD STAY HERE !!! Please support this issue !  Thanks, Steve Habkirk

 

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 Posted: Wed Jun 19th, 2019 05:17 am
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Vince Radice
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RichD wrote: Seems like the municipio of San Pedro de la Cueva was established in 1932 according to the internet and you know everything is true on the internet. This is the area around El Novillo where many Americans have places where they store bass boats. Anyway, I still do not understand the process for establishing a new municipio. What are the steps and who has to approve?  Is the process that Bullshipper listed incorrect?  It seems pointless to talk about the advantages for San Carlos if it can't be done.  Yeah I made a mistake on that it's a different Municipio and the they broke away from Guaymas. 

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 Posted: Wed Jun 19th, 2019 05:35 am
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Vince Radice
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RichD wrote: Seems like the municipio of San Pedro de la Cueva was established in 1932 according to the internet and you know everything is true on the internet. This is the area around El Novillo where many Americans have places where they store bass boats. Anyway, I still do not understand the process for establishing a new municipio. What are the steps and who has to approve?  Is the process that Bullshipper listed incorrect?  It seems pointless to talk about the advantages for San Carlos if it can't be done.  I am trying to do this on my cell phone so forgive me if I accidentally post this twice the name of the comisaria that broke away from Guaymas was called San Ignacio de Rio muerto. I was incorrect about the name obviously sorry for the error!!

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 Posted: Wed Jun 19th, 2019 05:38 am
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Vince Radice
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also if anyone has a projector that is Mac compatible or PC compatible I guess it doesn't matter the committee is doing a presentation tomorrow at 6 p.m. at fil Ross condominiums and their projector I guess had an issue.


I did mention this on another thread in the forum and in a show of appreciation anybody out there who can lend us a projector gets a free dolphin watching trip on our 25-foot super panga!!


Thanks!!

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