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 Moderated by: bartmanaz Page:  First Page Previous Page  1  2  3   
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water status  Rate Topic 
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 Posted: Fri Jul 21st, 2017 08:35 pm
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Richard Baca
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Mana: 
C'mon Frankie, chill out man! Don't kill the messenger because you don't like the message. Sure the surrounding communities are growing, but that doesn't mean that infrastructure such as this can't keep up. CEA and local Government are for sure corrupt and controversial but this project is State level which is arguably a little more transparent. My main worry though is always at the contractor level. But vamos a ver, let's keep an eye on this thing and hope for the best. Basically I think it's good news.

Last edited on Fri Jul 21st, 2017 08:36 pm by

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 Posted: Fri Jul 21st, 2017 09:29 pm
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RichD
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I don't think I can stop being cynical anytime soon but will try to keep open minded about this project.  Seems like a huge project for Sonora, I wonder if there is federal funding for this.  Some of the technical documents have Conagua (federal water agency) all over them instead of CEA.  Mexico gets a new president next year, that might impact funding.  
One interesting technical detail is the recommendation to drill 4 wells on the desaladora site to use brackish water rather than sea water.  That makes some sense but may have some drawbacks.  
Once again, thanks for the link Don.  Good reading on a rainy day in the mountains.  
A graphic in the documents showing salt water intrusion on the aquifer and the concept of shallow (100M) beach wells. 







Attached Image (viewed 283 times):

Capture.JPG

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 Posted: Fri Jul 21st, 2017 10:22 pm
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frankiej
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Mana: 
richard, thanks for running some estimated numbers!
there probably is no other option other than a desal plant. 
my concern is that it should be contemplated for at least a 10 year population growth!

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 Posted: Fri Jul 21st, 2017 10:38 pm
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frankiej
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RichD wrote: I don't think I can stop being cynical anytime soon but will try to keep open minded about this project.  . 







ok!!
*we get new paved road san carlos, no money for repairs
*new street lights no money for repairs or to keep them lighted
* new police cars no money to keep them running
* pueblo scenica , no money for repairs, project abandoned
* leaks every day every where
* ECT ECT!!!
with all the problems we have had the last few months with CEA new meters & reduction valves. do you really think the current staff is capiblle of running $43 mil plant??
where are they passing out the rose colored glasses, i guess i need a pair!



Last edited on Fri Jul 21st, 2017 10:45 pm by frankiej

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 Posted: Fri Jul 21st, 2017 10:44 pm
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kiteboarder
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Cost of water produced is reasonable. The Sorek plant that RichD mentioned produces clean water for less than $.40 per cubic meter. They didn't give any details about the waste disposal except that they will use an outflow pipe that will extend 1.3 km into the sea. Current water usage is about 42 gal per person per day so if Richard's calculation of this being an additional 20 gal per person per day is correct, that is a significant amount. We will still be running a recharge deficit and to try to make that better there is a 10 million peso budget every year to improve infrastructure and cut down on leaks. With 51% private funding and 49% federal funding it looks like a sweet deal to me.Oh, and if you look here you will see they have accounted for population growth out to 2036: http://www.desaladora.sonora.gob.mx/images/transparencia/estudios/estudio-sustentabilidad-para-el-congreso.pdf

Last edited on Fri Jul 21st, 2017 10:50 pm by kiteboarder

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 Posted: Sat Jul 22nd, 2017 02:27 am
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maryt
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If I was a private investor the first question I would have is how and when are they going to start collecting from the 75% in Guaymas that do not pay their water bills.

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 Posted: Sat Jul 22nd, 2017 02:45 am
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Danodamano
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These are the dates I read:

Investment Start Date: First Quarter of 2018

Start Date: Fourth quarter of 2019

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 Posted: Sat Jul 22nd, 2017 04:03 am
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Richard Baca
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The way I read it, bids will be accepted in October, 2017, construction to start 1st quarter of 2018 and service to start late 2019.

As for waste salt disposal, the plan is for a discharge manifold at the 5 meter depth level and salinity is estimated to dissipate and return to normal levels at about 6 kilometers distance from the manifold.

Hey, at least someone is trying!

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 Posted: Sat Jul 22nd, 2017 04:43 am
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Bullshipper
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kiteboarder wrote: Cost of water produced is reasonable. The Sorek plant that RichD mentioned produces clean water for less than $.40 per cubic meter. They didn't give any details about the waste disposal except that they will use an outflow pipe that will extend 1.3 km into the sea. Current water usage is about 42 gal per person per day so if Richard's calculation of this being an additional 20 gal per person per day is correct, that is a significant amount. We will still be running a recharge deficit and to try to make that better there is a 10 million peso budget every year to improve infrastructure and cut down on leaks. With 51% private funding and 49% federal funding it looks like a sweet deal to me.Oh, and if you look here you will see they have accounted for population growth out to 2036: http://www.desaladora.sonora.gob.mx/images/transparencia/estudios/estudio-sustentabilidad-para-el-congreso.pdf

I used to be in the business of managing the instalations of municipal water treatment plants. A couple things have me scratching my head. 
We used about 2 cents a cubic meter as our rule of thumb cost to turn grey water into drinking water, 0.2 cents per cubic meter to produce well  to produce from shallow aquifers like the ones they use to supply Guaymas and Empalme, and the projected cost for desal water is around 40 cents according to them.
The $43 million dlls for a public works water plant also strikes me as very small project. Since we also bid on jobs we  designed here in Mexico, the usual gov plan is to invite private companys to build and operate these plants with a 15 year concession that is setup on a cost plus basis garanteeing the private utility its investment  back in 15 years+ a 15-20% profit on operating cost. Sort of the same thing they did with private toll roads in the south.
This sounds like a lot, but basically, based on a 5,000,000 gallons a day, the profit is only $1368 dlls per day or 1/2 million per year or a 1.1% Return on Investment, so I don't see how they are going to attract investors unless they are giving them a free reign on their prices to raise the cost of desal water a lot more than they are stating and letting them make a lot on the civil contracts and equipment. 
We used to take these projects on, but we made around 40% of the project cost, and that alone generated around $40-200 million per job in the 1st year, plus a higher margin on our spare parts+ the small profit on the operating income, but these were usually 100-500 million dollar projects in Mexico City, Monterey, GDL and so on.

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 Posted: Sat Jul 22nd, 2017 06:00 am
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frankiej
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bullshipper, thank you very very much!
folks this is about the most realistic educated independent opinion you are going to get!
i rest my case!

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 Posted: Sat Jul 22nd, 2017 07:02 am
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frankiej
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Richard Baca wrote: Converting pesos to US$ and liters to US gallons:

The cost is estimated to be US$43,828,101.30
Targeted production works out to 19.78 gallons per person per day based on a served population of 225,664.



richard, i wasn't trying to kill he messenger, i appreciate kiteboarders post!
i only posted that it was a little short sighted. population growth is a major factor!
if your going to spend the money , spend the money and do it correct!
19.78 gallons per person is far short of actual personal usage per day! 

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 Posted: Sat Jul 22nd, 2017 04:01 pm
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Richard Baca
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Frankie, the site does in fact project population growth. As for 19.78 US gals per day, remember, this desalination plant is to supplement existing water sources NOT replace them. Anyway, let's see what happens in October when they start accepting bids.

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 Posted: Sat Jul 22nd, 2017 05:53 pm
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Bullshipper
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According to this report the average costs to desal 2000 liters of seawater to produce a 1000 liters of drinking water in California is $.76-$.97 in 2010, according this report.

https://watereuse.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/WateReuse_Desal_Cost_White_Paper.pdf 
But that is still cheap, asif a family of 4 uses 23,000 liters a month, or 23x .97= $22.31 dlls per month, which is about what we pay now for less water with less purity. 

Last edited on Sat Jul 22nd, 2017 06:00 pm by Bullshipper

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 Posted: Sat Jul 22nd, 2017 07:37 pm
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hans
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MarytThe 25% will pay for the Water, to a very high Price. Like that is is already functioning.:?

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 Posted: Sat Jul 22nd, 2017 10:05 pm
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frankiej
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this is the latest garbage being installed. it was only at one residence where i live. we chased them out of here!!
what you are seeing from the left is a plastic check valve, an air check valve,  a reduction valve, all of plastic. there was no permission asked or granted to do this work with substandard materials!

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20170722_103046.jpg

Last edited on Sat Jul 22nd, 2017 10:09 pm by frankiej

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 Posted: Sun Jul 23rd, 2017 06:47 pm
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MARIGOT
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Mana: 
What does the reduction valve look like?

Would like to be able to identify it if they put one on my line.

Thanks

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 Posted: Sun Jul 23rd, 2017 06:56 pm
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frankiej
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it is "black" to the right of the reddish fitting in the photo!
the reduction valve comes open about a 1/2 inch when closed it looks half moon!
i am not saying this is a bad thing! i think it works like this;
if your garden hose has about 40 PSi and you place your thumb at the end the water jets out further! this being in a contained system is called jetting and on my system has given me more pressure from the street!
my system is hooked up using street pressure and water pump pressure, i have a 2 story home!
my problem is the new reddish plumbing fixtures. in 38 years of construction i have never seen them! they leak from the get go!
that's why most are complaining here in san carlos/ guaymas!

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 Posted: Tue Jul 25th, 2017 06:53 pm
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Limey
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Mana: 
i have a complaint...NO WATER... 8cm for the month...go figure.

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 Posted: Tue Jul 25th, 2017 08:02 pm
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ezmony
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Mana: 
Join the club-----and don't feel like the "Lone Ranger".

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