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Bienvenidos!

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GracielaC
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Buenos dias Senores, el movimiento ha empezado, tal vez ustedes pueden ayudar nos conseguir firmas para esa documento de gente que viven en su colonia?
Abajo es un link al senor Juan Carlos quien explica todo el tiempo, mas que dos anos, que hemos gastado para llegar aqui.
Gracias por cual quier ayuda en este asunto.
Muchos saludosTodos por un San Carlos Próspero, Unete!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLBzttzJo7c
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Good morning, gentlemen, the movement has started, maybe you can help us get signatures for that document from people living in your colony?
Below is a link to Mr. Juan Carlos who explains all the time, more than two years, we have spent to get here.
Thank you for any help in this matter.
Many greetingsTodos por un San Carlos Próspero, Unete!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLBzttzJo7c

Attachment: SanCarlos-firms.pdf (Downloaded 74 times)

odwyerpw
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Interesting. Basically the initial steps to pursue designating San Carlos as the 73rd independent municipality of Sonora. It's a public notice that the citizens in support of this movement wish to secede from the municipality of Guaymas.

Vince Radice
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Yes San Carlos full fills all the requirements needed to be in''s own municipio. The local residents, Mexicans that is, need to exercise their constitutional rights under article 39. It's the only way forward. Juan Carlos explains quite well in the video what he has done over the last two years and how he has legally documented how city officials have violated the rights of San Carlos residents.

Juan Carlos also explains nicely why the last comisario quit and how the current Comisario of San Carlos is illegal.

GracielaC
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And here's a good reason to consider this:
http://mexiconewsdaily.com/news/guaymas-money-woes-put-local-services-at-risk/

maryt
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What I don´t understand is how non-Mexican citizens would have any more legal status than they do now should SC be a separate city.

johnmoore
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San Carlos becoming a Municipality would have not enhance. nor detract from our status. The goal is to retain taxes raised here in San Carlos, and have final say over how they are used. Perhaps a secondary goal is to make Vince's wife the Comisaria.....???? who knows.....ain't gonna happen

Last edited on Sat May 27th, 2017 02:26 pm by johnmoore

VisitorSanCarlos
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why is the comisario ilegal ?

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what is the comisarios job

long time resident
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Visitor San Carlos. Watch the video, it explains very clearly why the comisario is not legal. The presentation was excellent. Juan Carlos seems to be very well informed, and has done his research. His explanations were very well presented. The problems that San Carlos is dealing with , are quite serious. It has hampered development, and it has driven many to other parts of Mexico. It is time for Guaymas to address the lack of public service, and give back the money to San Carlos for the services and projects that are so lacking in everyday life.

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Yes it would be to San Carlos' advantage to be its own municipio in control of its own property tax revenue. BUT, we foreigners cannot sign a petition to that effect because that would constitute participation by a foreigner in a Mexican political process.

It's one thing to petition for better services i.e. water, sewer, electric and phone/internet vs. petitioning to secede from the Municipio de Guaymas.

Richard Baca
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As for the current Comisario being "illegal", that's just simply not so. The reason is that even though there is a protocol for bringing names up for the Mayor's consideration, it is still the Mayor's prerogative. He can name anyone he wants to be his Comisario in each of the various communities in the municipio (like a county in the U.S.). The City Council can though, by a simple majority, override the Mayor's appointment but this is seldom done. So if the City Council doesn't like the fact that Ruben Pinto owns a restaurant in San Carlos, they can vote him out. Until then, he is our LEGALLY appointed Comisario.  

susanr
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Bravo! I will help you get those signatures from my friends who are Mexican and can legally sign.

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it looks like rubin is getting some action on the water and sewer problem. i don't see a problem with that. it looks like the water and sewer mess has been going on for a while. is he just pulling wool ?

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Visitor, Ruben Pinto, Comisario de San Carlos, delivered the petition and photos of the sewer problem to the Governor. Two days later there was action on some of the sewer problems but it is still up to us, the affected residents to keep up the pressure. I've posted the Governor's email address earlier. Keep pounding away San Carlos!

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I would assume that the people of Guaymas would vote against this if we are actually helping to provide more money to their infrastructure. I would also assume that 90K full Mexican residents in Guaymas will probably cast more no votes than the 4k part time Mexican residents here, or am I missing something?

Last edited on Sun May 28th, 2017 06:12 pm by Bullshipper

Jimmy
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City of San Carlos


It would be a great Coup. All in San Carlos would benefit. The faint of heart can not believe it can happen.


PS. Every great event that I made happen in my life started with "NO or It Can't Be Done".    Go Figure.


We got the Movers and the Shakers and then we have the Nay Sayers.


Question; which one of those two groups would you want to run your your Company or your future?

Last edited on Sun May 28th, 2017 09:45 pm by Jimmy

maryt
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Bullshipper raises an interesting issue: can part-time Mexican owners vote in a Guaymas election or only in their regular residence city.

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contacto@sonora.gob.mx

Above is the email address for the Governor in Hermosillo. Let's all make noise! Be sure to put "Attention: Governor Pavlovich Re: CEA in San Carlos, Sonora". It doesn't matter that the email is in English. If enough people write to her, it will get her attention.

Last edited on Sun May 28th, 2017 11:41 pm by

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Bullshipper & MaryT, This would be a local referendum and the qualifications of an eligible voter are:

1. Credencial de votante, voter registration card;
2. Property in San Carlos recorded in his/her name;
3. Utility bills in his/her name, (prior six months).

The legal boundaries of San Carlos are those of the three ranches that make up San Carlos: Rancho El Baviso (the biggest one with all of the Ranchitos and Creston); Rancho Bahia San Carlos (the smallest) and Rancho Algodones (West side). I don't know if Pilar, Delphin, Arecifes or any of the Ejido Buenos Aires could join in the referendum but I suspect not because they are outside of the "Nuevo Guaymas" designation, (still within the 85506 zip code though, hmmmm...?).

Last edited on Mon May 29th, 2017 12:05 am by

Bullshipper
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Richard Baca wrote: Bullshipper & MaryT, This would be a local referendum and the qualifications of an eligible voter are:

1. Credencial de votante, voter registration card;
2. Property in San Carlos recorded in his/her name;
3. Utility bills in his/her name, (prior six months).

The legal boundaries of San Carlos are those of the three ranches that make up San Carlos: Rancho El Baviso (the biggest one with all of the Ranchitos and Creston); Rancho Bahia San Carlos (the smallest) and Rancho Algodones (West side). I don't know if Pilar, Delphin, Arecifes or any of the Ejido Buenos Aires could join in the referendum but I suspect not because they are outside of the "Nuevo Guaymas" designation, (still within the 85506 zip code though, hmmmm...?).


To be clear, I am for this, I just think its an uphill fight that's impossible to pull off if the voters in Guaymas have a vote. I have been asked on the street for money repeatedly after asking for directions, so I believe the residents also feel we are their cash cow. Their situation is really desperate.

Vince Radice
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Bullshipper: Citizens of Guaymas do not vote on whether San Carlos would be it's own municipio or not. It is not up to Guaymas citizens. There are essentially two paths. One path is that the state legislature in Hermosillo votes in favor of the referendum that will be put before them. They can vote yes or they can vote no. The other path is more direct. Utilize Article 39 of the Mexican Constitution which Juan Carlos recites from memory in the video. I will para phrase Article 39, "It is the inalienable right of any Pueblo to change it's form or government when it decides to". It is not up to Guaymas. It is up to the Mexican residents of San Carlos.

Baca: No one is asking Americans to sign this document.This document is not for Americans to sign. Also if you would watch the video, Juan Carlos not myself, explains why Ruben Pinto is an illegal comisario. We are talking about a Mexican national who has spent several years studying the law.

Visitor San Carlos: A person can not be the comisario of San Carlos if they hold a permit to sell alcohol. It is stated in the law. Again this information comes from Juan Carlos Gonzales and Victor Parra Maldonado. Two people who have spent a lot of time researching the law. Of course when has Guaymas ever cared about what is legal and what is not in regards to San Carlos, their cash cow.

Susanr: Yes please ask your Mexican friends to sign this letter. Which is a far better and more pertinent document that was written by a lawyer not an illegitimate comisario who just recently tried to sucker Americans into paying out of their own pocket to fix our ailing infrastructure. Remember why Ruben didn't invite Mexicans to the meeting? The few that showed up were in disbelief of what he proposed.

Jimmy: You are right on the money. What it takes is local Mexicans to simply exercise their inalienable rights under Article 39 of the Mex. Constitution.

Long Time Resident: Yes this is all about public services which Juan Carlos explains in the video. Guaymas is illegally denying San Carlos the services that it is guaranteed under Mexican Law. It has been well documented. Juan Carlos shows you in the video, that you obviously watched with great attention, all the painstaking documentation that has gone into this.

Jimmy
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How exciting. I can only imagine;


Dependable water and sewer service
Regular dependable trash pick up
Road and street repair and maintenance
Beach and area clean up
Police who are helpful and will not rob you or your house
A Comisario who has a vested interest in San Carlos and is not a  puppet of Guaymas
A town council to oversee what is best for our little Pueblo
Sufficient tax money to take care of local needs


What you can conceive and believe, you can achieve [Norman Vincent Peal]



 

GracielaC
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No sure if correct... Real Estate tax collection 195 million pesos. Budget for San Carlos are 19 million pesos. Anyone know better?

lasninas
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There are approximately 3,000 homes and 690 condos in San Carlos.  I don't see how the property tax could be as high as you suggest.  Averaging 7,000 pesos per home and 5,000 pesos per condo you get 24,450,00 pesos.  Just a rough estimate. Of course, this does not include property tax on commercial buildings and hotels, etc. 

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There are also all of the vacant lots and the fact that the high end homes and lots pay a lot more plus all of the hotels and commercial properties.

Last edited on Tue May 30th, 2017 02:56 am by

Bullshipper
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Thanks for the explanation Vince.

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You do mean $ 24,450,000.00 correct?    Looks like it would cover the current budget. 

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Guaymas is paid from San Carlos around 33% of its working budget from tax revenue. That is around $184,000,000 million pesos a year.

Guaymas gave San Carlos a budget of around 8 million pesos for 2017. That 8 million pesos is not for anything other than the police and the comisario office.

No money for infrastructure improvement or any other project for that matter. The comisario is never legally elected because they/Guaymas politicians don't want a comisario that would actually represent the interests of San Carlos.

Aslo Jimmy just to clarify. If San Carlos were it's own Municipio it would no longer have a Comisario. It would have a mayor or a "Presidente". Also it would have it's own court house and it's own Ministerio Publico. Now just imagine this.

What if we had a Minsiterio publico who was honest and would actually prosecute anyone who tried to get away with any real estate fraud in San Carlos! Wouldn't that be great!! And you are again right on the money with the police situation. Wouldn't it be nice if San Carlos had bilingual police that were not allowed to rip off local residents and actually were here to help?

Imagine how much money the city would make in speeding tickets here. I live one block off of the main road and anyone who has ever raised any kids in this town will agree that people drive around like maniacs here. One of my greatest fears was always that my kids were gonna get run down by a speeding car.

The Mexicans have to want this for their community. They could have it if they would be willing to fight for it. We shall see if that will happen or not.

Last edited on Tue May 30th, 2017 05:24 am by Vince Radice

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The only negative I see would be what if our Ministerio publico was not honest and put in place by an elected Presidente who themselves were ones that were involved in some of the real estate fraud? The Presidente would basically be in charge of the tax rates and have the purse strings of all the tax revenues, a potentially corrupt court house and private police force for protection. Many such scenarios have played out throughout Mexico in smaller municipalities. As tax payers who cannot vote we could be at their mercy throughout their elected term.

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where do these numbers come from.  is their any way to verify the accuracy.   it's easy to make this stuff up.  

Guaymas is paid from San Carlos around 33% of its working budget from tax revenue. That is around $184,000,000 million pesos a year.

Guaymas gave San Carlos a budget of around 8 million pesos for 2017. That 8 million pesos is not for anything other than the police and the comisario office.  

frankiej
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"the municipality of guaymas" how closed minded are we to believe that it is just "guaymas" and "san carlos nuevo guaymas" the tentacles of this municipality extend far and wide! how many pueblitos are included that need and depend on the MUNICIPALITIES police force? san jose, santa clara, la manga, la travasada, mayotrena, ortiz, and more and more of theses little pueblitos!
so if san carlos nuevo guaymas where to be annexed, who are the pillars from both parties who will run this "new community" for the years and decades to come??????
i am not sure if the tire needs to be reinvented as much as it needs to be improved!

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Flaco: You are correct, being our own Municipio is not a panacea and does not solve all of our problems. We will still have to deal with politicians and city council members who will not be beyond corruption, police who will certainly not be beyond inept. But we all ready have that scenario now. At least they will be our corrupt politicians and our inept police. It will be harder for them to get away with corruption in a smaller town where people care and actually pay attention to what is going on.

A few summers ago I traveled to the town of Orizaba in Vera Cruz. Orizaba is a beautiful valley located at the base of Citlatepetal, El Pico de Orizaba, the third highest peak in north america. When you descend from the central plateau you will enter a 25 kilometer long valley. Roughly the distance between San Carlos and Guaymas. Within this 25 kilometer valley there are 18 separate "Municipios". Yes 18 separate cities with their own police own courts. Why? I asked my friend who lives there why? The answer was simple.

People don't want others who do not live in their town deciding how their town will be run.

Vince Radice
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Visitor San Carlos: I am not making this up. If you want to call up the people who have spent several years working on this I will give you their phone number and you can call them or you can go down to the palacio and start doing your own research. Nothing we do is "made up". Go talk to our Ex Comisario Pancho Alcantar who runs Blackies.

If you are in disbelieve and believe we are making these numbers up then get to work and start verifying yourself.

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i don't think there is any argument regarding distribution of the tax revenues!
but what does san carlos nuevo guaymas bring to the table other than property taxes?
i have read many, many times that san carlos nuevo guaymas is the "CASH COW" !!!
is it? 
what are the 2 largest industries in the guaymas municipality?
i would say the sea food and agricultural industries out weigh every thing else!!
WHAT PERCENTAGE of the those MILLIONS of dollars "pesos" produced are placed back into "our" community???  
those 2 industries are probably the biggest offenders of "lost or un/taxed revenues"  
i would rather see pressure placed on those 2 industries, before i see my taxes double, triple, quadruple to support our own community!

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I operated my mines in the Municipio de San Javier Sonoara, pop 800. The Pri or Pan gives it money to maintain the party line, and of course 4-10 milliion pesos dissapears after every presidente retires. There are also regidores, his cabient members so to speak, that also reap some extra benefits, and of course the town needs to install and maintain have its offices, jail, doctor, schools, etc. I wold also assume that SC would take responsibility for their own water, sewer, and have to upgrade La Manga if it lies within its jurisdiction.

The presidente in SJ makes about $30K pesos per month, but also has an expense account, vehicle, driver and a Hermosillo allowance, where they spend about 75% of their time on "official business" making their second homes there. The allowance is 4-5x their salary from what I am told plus what they siphon from the Municipo hardware and building suppy credit accounts.
So being presidente is a good job.

Last edited on Tue May 30th, 2017 06:14 pm by Bullshipper

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Frankie, You're right, in the macro economic sense but we're talking municipal microeconomics here. The corporate taxes you are referring to are federal and state taxes; the property taxes we are concerned about are local municipal property taxes that maintain local essential services. It has been said by a current municipal official, that 90% of San Carlos property owners (mostly in fideicomiso) pay their yearly property taxes on time (to get the discount), while 90% of Guaymas property owners DO NOT pay their property taxes. So YES, San Carlos is Guyamas' CASH COW! 
Just look at the greater Miramar area of Guaymas. That sector alone would generate as much as San Carlos does if they were taxed at the same mil rate (which they are not) BUT more importantly, IF THEY PAID!
What "bullshipper" is referring to above is just plain outright blatant corruption, and yes, IMO we have it here too, as circumstantially evidenced by the current debt that Guaymas has accumulated with inadequate accounting of application of the borrowed funds. 

Last edited on Tue May 30th, 2017 06:25 pm by

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If you are in disbelieve and believe we are making these numbers up then get to work and start verifying yourself.

i am not in disbelife. i also have no reason to believe. not everything on the internet is true.  i asked for the source.  if you have one share it. as i said anyone can make up numbers.  i can make up numbers.  that doesn't make my numbers right.  

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8 million pesos is almost 430,000 a year or close to 40,000 per month. where is it going.

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Visitor, I don't know if the above quoted number is correct or not, but whatever the number is, it ain't gettin spent here! And therein lies the issue at hand!

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LIKE! (couldn't find the button... :-)

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Richard Baca wrote: Visitor, I don't know if the above quoted number is correct or not, but whatever the number is, it ain't gettin spent here! And therein lies the issue at hand!

i think that is my point.  is there an accurate accounting.  how would we know.  
it is easy to toss out our wild accusations and numbers.  true or not there should be some way to know where these numbers come from.  

Last edited on Wed May 31st, 2017 05:14 pm by

odwyerpw
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This is a map of all Municipios in the state of Sonora. Some are large like Hermosillo, Guaymas, Pitiquito and Caborca. Others are quite small like Aconchi, Atil, San Filipe de Jesus, Huepac and Divisaderos. 

I found it useful for knowing what ended where here in lower Sonora around Alamos. There are approx 90 distinct communities with populations above 50 persons in the municipio of Alamos (there are 317 registered communities, but only approx 90 with populations above 50, 21 of which are comisarias).


I would imagine the number is similar for Guaymas (again talking about areas with populations above 50, so that number won't be anywhere near the 1500 communities various websites report for Guaymas).  Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find a listing of communities for Guaymas. 


What can I say.. I like Geography.


Last edited on Wed May 31st, 2017 09:11 pm by odwyerpw

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Vince, did you choreograph, video record and edit the Juan Carlos video? And we all know about the Gonzales Group, so once again I say, "consider the source..."

Through the smoke and haze though, methinks fundamentally that making San Carlos its own municipio is a good idea. It just has to be via a responsible Mexican registered voter initiative.

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VisitorSanCarlos wrote: Richard Baca wrote: Visitor, I don't know if the above quoted number is correct or not, but whatever the number is, it ain't gettin spent here! And therein lies the issue at hand!

i think that is my point.  is there an accurate accounting.  how would we know.  
it is easy to toss out our wild accusations and numbers.  true or not there should be some way to know where these numbers come from.  


Guaymas has a long standing reputation for corruption so "getting to the bottom" of their accounting is a rather novel goals since the state controller has had no success with the same task for decades.
This town is large enough to support a municipal government, so the task at hand is to motivate enough local mexicans and out of towners to come to vote on it to get enough votes for quorum.

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To be clear, on any referendum to force the issue of San Carlos as its own municipio, NO, GUAYMAS RESIDENTS WOULD NOT HAVE A VOTE! It would be a local (to San Carlos) issue. That the city government of Guaymas would oppose it, I have no doubt. As for the citizens of Guaymas, I don't think most would care because most are not aware of San Carlos' contribution to municipal revenue.

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you can get signatures of hundreds of "fulanos and fulanas", but until you have the support of the resident nationals of prominence and stature, nothing is going to happen!
this is a "good ole boy state, and municipality"!!!!!!!!
it has always been and always will be!

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Oye Frankie, son los fulanos y fulanas de Guaymas Norte that are getting our water precisely because they vote! And they voted for the city government we have now! You don't think the city government doesn't want to keep them happy? If your "movers & shakers" here are so powerful, why don't they order more wells drilled in the Valle de San Jose to service Guaymas Norte and give us back our water? Certainly it would be to their advantage as developers and business owners, don't ya'll think? I don't think they are as all powerful as you imply. A grassroots movement could gain traction, but getting responsible leadership is the key.

Last edited on Thu Jun 1st, 2017 09:55 pm by

frankiej
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all the prominent, influential, "movers and shakers" that can vote in this region have their roots in guaymas!
compadres, comadres, tios, tias, primos and primas!

Last edited on Thu Jun 1st, 2017 10:13 pm by frankiej

Vince Radice
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I agree and disagree with Frankie. It would be helpful and faster to have some rich people on the side of San Carlos being it's own municipio. But it not necessary according to the Mexican Constitution. In no place in Article 39 of the Mexican Constitution does it say that a pueblo needs rich people to be in favor of a governance change. Sooner or later if this went to lets say the supreme court of Mexico. No judge in his or her right mind could possible rule against the what the constitution says.

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The liberal judges on our courts do it quite often.

Vince Radice
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If judges were to rule against the constitution a few hundred Mexicans in the streets would pretty much put an end to Guaymas' reign over San Carlos. The government is that weak here. The apathy by local residents though is very strong as well. Two wrongs that may inevitably never make a right.

Last edited on Sat Jun 3rd, 2017 04:37 pm by Vince Radice

frankiej
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Vince Radice The apathy by local residents though is very strong as well.


this is the biggest problem! why i have stated that only the influence of the voting residents of prominence and stature will make a difference!

Last edited on Sat Jun 3rd, 2017 04:12 pm by frankiej

Vince Radice
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No one has tried "full time" in earnest to organize the local mexicans here. The activists that have asked me to help them with their media do this part time. It really is a full time job, not a part time job.

We need some full time Mexicans with a vision to get on board with this. It really ain't so much about the money as it is about the community organizing end of it.

Any time I speak with a local in his own language and explain to him the simple math they are ready to sign up or at least sign a petition.

frankiej
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Vince Radice wrote: I agree and disagree with Frankie. It would be helpful and faster to have some rich people on the side of San Carlos being it's own municipio. 
there are voting residents of san carlos who are of prominence and stature who i wouldn't consider "rich", they own hardware stores, restaurants, hotels, stores, ect: middle class hard working individuals! that is the leadership needed!
they can influence and inspire the real "movers and shakers" who have political and the financial means to get the job done!

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Ahh Frankie, you finally nailed it! Now what we need is for one of those "prominents" to come forward and lead. I'd say someone that can put a sign-up desk in their "changarro" for San Carlos' registered voters to make their collective voice heard.

Vince Radice
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http://www.elportaldelanoticia.mx/index.php/noticias/14-local/1935-residentes-de-san-carlos-buscaran-ser-el-municipio-73-de-sonora

ezmony
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And so-----here we go, the wheels of progress let's hope.

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This situation has been a tremendous swindle to the tax paying residents of San Carlos for as long as I've been here...and, it only appears to be getting worse.
For this reason, I would be very happy to sign this petition...Please let me know where and when.
Interestingly, I note too that this appears to be the ONLY subject the local "Hatfields and McCoys" ( so to speak ) have ever basically agreed upon.
Steve Habkirk

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Are you able to vote in the Mexican elections Steve?

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What (how many) and where is the circulation of El Portal de la Noticia? I don't think it's hardly enough to start a groundswell in San Carlos.

Last edited on Wed Jul 5th, 2017 05:48 am by

amigo2
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I'm still waiting to hear about a place to sign this petition ?
Also, I would think that one of our local Mexican lawyers could write a non Mexican voter / non-political support petition to be signed by local residents and accompany the Mexican voter signature document we are talking about. Since the state legislature will undoubtedly see these requests, I think it would show convincing community support to see several hundred ( thousand maybe ? )land owners / residents in favor as well.



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