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long time resident
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In the New York Times, there was an interesting article regarding land seizures in Tulum Mexico.  How safe are the properties in San Carlos?  Apparently, according to those that were interviewed, their hotels, private residences, and businesses were taken by a court order that they were not aware of.  The legal system at its' finest.

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No link to the article?  Pure conjecture on a connection to SC?  Provide the reference or this one gets deleted.

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The Tulum properties were on ejido land. Not a smart move.

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http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/17/world/americas/mexico-tulum-corruption-evictions.html?_r=0

Google found it 1st time :)


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Thanks....I just wrote it all down to transfer, but my computer was being difficult. I guess it can be technically challenging sometimes....I have bought ejido land. It can be done correctly, without any problems. What upset me was the way all of this was handled, and no notice, no accountability, or anything. And yes, it has happened else where many times over, and it wasn't ejido land, but a corrupt system.

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"people" sometimes move into an area and just settle!  then someone moves in beside them.  then someone sells the property they settled, and so on and so on!   illegal
then the legal owner/owners come in,  chases the squatters out,  seize the improvements,  declare legal ownership,  and usually a for sale sign follows!   legal 
is this happening in the san carlos area???
la manga is a perfect example!  
the road to the dolfinaria another!

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Frankiej, can you expand on how this is happening or happened in La Manga and the road to the Delfinario?

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FrankieJ, do you have any facts to back that up? Or are you speculating or opining?

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the squatter situation has been a topic in la manga since i came here 15 years ago!  i have photos from 46 years ago as evidence la manga did not exist!  i have photos from when i move here 15 years ago of a small fishing village "la manga"!  there is now "la manga I" and "la manga II"  there is a valid reason why water and electric do not reach there!  there are no real estate signs from any of the many real estate companies doing business here in san carlos in "la manga",  that i am a where of!  WHY?

the current development "rincon del ensueno" is dealing first hand with part of their properties adjoining la manga!

have i seen any law suits for that property?  no!!  why would I??  would i buy any property there, no!  

the properties which the road traverses to get to the dolfinaria is in litigation.  i have seen articles in the paper!  that was and is part of the buenos aires ejido!

i am not an attorney, just an observant resident!



Last edited on Thu Aug 18th, 2016 06:01 pm by frankiej

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I know people who have squatted the land in La Manga. They invited me to join them. One was a lawyer from Guaymas, and he has a nice house out there. Said that if you build it, and live in it, then it is yours. Not rumor, know the players, and it didn't seem right to me, so I wanted no part of it, but they claim that it is their right under Mexican law.
Road to the Delphinario, many articles in the Guaymas newspaper. Actually one lawyer involved in it, passed away early on, but several others are still fighting the fight. I believe that Jose Ordaz could shed some light on it. He was involved, according to the news papers.

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long time resident wrote: Thanks....I just wrote it all down to transfer, but my computer was being difficult. I guess it can be technically challenging sometimes....I have bought ejido land. It can be done correctly, without any problems. What upset me was the way all of this was handled, and no notice, no accountability, or anything. And yes, it has happened else where many times over, and it wasn't ejido land, but a corrupt system.

As far as I know, all ejido land possessions could only be transfered between ejido members with prior permission granted by a majority of votes by all the members present at a monthly ejido meeting.
The federal government has been anxious to grant titles to long term possesions so that they can start charging property taxes, so I am interested in how you are actually doing this legally through a notary and public registry?

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Bullshipper, each ejido has a different deal. The ejido in San Jose was granted by the government personal ownership, and each member was given (or paid for) a specific area. This are aid where they built their home or whatever....they have title. They have the ability to transfer their rights. It didn't take all that long, but the process was a bit complicated. I used Notario Publico #41 when I purchased the property It was registered, and had its clavee de castral When I sold it, I used Notario Publico #10 Salas Castro, and it went very smoothly, no problems in the registro. It has been done many times now in different ejidos. The ejido Buenes Aires now has the right to sell properties. You can go and speak with any notario, and they probably have a good idea which ejidos are now available for legal transfer.

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Condos Pilar was built on ejido land, and it took years for that to be resolved, but it was, and the condos are in bank trusts.

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Glad to hear that the titled properties can be sold smoothly. Thanks for the explanation.

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Just curious, has there ever been a case in San Carlos of someone losing property that they bought with an existing trust? I always thought this was safe, maybe I am wrong.

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Caracol incident. Happened a couple of times that I personally know of. Pm me, I can not go into it on the board.

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what do you consider safe?  does a recorded title from a notario make it safe and problem free?
there is a 3 story home in the carocal that has 2 titles on it,  one owner occupies the 3rd floor and the other owner occupies the 1st and 2nd floor,  but get this;  it is divided vertically!  not horizontally but vertically!  
 it is common to have multiple titles on a single building,  they are condominiums !
it was my understanding that the carocal was a single family housing development!
caramba!

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escrow officer "vs" notario ;
NOB an escrow officer does all the document preparation,  ownership transfer "fee simple" normally,  they usually work for or with a title company,  each state may have different rules and regulations.  the title company offers title insurance for a fee.  the title insurance is your guarantee of a "fee simple" title!
here a notario,  does basically the same work as the escrow officer and most of the time it is a safe,  and legal transfer of title.  the difference is there is no title insurance!  
no title insurance leaves the purchaser and or seller vulnerable!
P.S.  the transfer of funds for purchase of a property with an escrow agent is done after the property is recorded!
the transfer of funds here are at the "meeting of minds" at the notario,  recordation may not occur for months, maybe years!
maybe not at all!!

Last edited on Sat Aug 20th, 2016 06:04 pm by frankiej

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RichD; Yes, it happened in Loma Bella where a Canadian purchased a lot from an American. The trust transferred complete with Certificate of No Liens. It turns out that some 20+ years earlier Fomento Urbano (the Estrada Group) had taken a deposit on the lot from a Mexican citizen. The Mexican waited until the Canadian had built the house, then pounced on the property claiming he had possession based on his deposit. In the ensuing law suit the Canadian lost at every level of appeal because Fomento Urbano had accepted and never returned the Mexican's deposit. Fomento Urbano never took full responsibility leaving the Canadian out to dry. He left in disgust.

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Senor Baca, a strange tale. Was the deposit recorded? If so the notary would/should have been aware. And when does a deposit, without bringing it to a sale, constitute possession? A very strange tale.

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Frankie, A property in the state of Arizona is not recorded until all monies have been received for the sale of the property., and all funds have been dispersed. At the time of recordation, the keys are given to the buyer. This usually takes place in the same day, if the closing is in the morning. Recordation of a title can not be done after 4 in the afternoon. Many times it is electronic, depending on which escrow/ title company you use.

I know of a property in the ranchitos that was given a certificate of no liens, (property had been in a bank trust for over 12 years) the notario transferred the title with the bank (Banamex) and when they went to registered the property a very old lien suddenly appeared in the old books, from a company that had not existed for over 2 decades, and the bank had given a trust in the beginning, and signed a transfer, and then suddenly there is this old lien. It was a mess. It happens.

Last edited on Sun Aug 21st, 2016 04:51 am by long time resident

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LTR, in the world of Realestate, is a deposit, a lien?

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LTR,  in arizona there is usually 2 closings!  the seller/sellers and the buyer/buyers usually each "party"  has separate closings!   i have witnessed as many as 4 separate appointments for closing,  and spread out over a 5 day work day week,  not always do the buyer/buyers close before the seller/sellers!  each closing is determined on the convenience of each party,  seller/sellers and buyer/buyers! 
funding and dispersal of funds are 2 separate issues,  the seller/sellers if liens are involved with them are the last in line of the dispersal's! 
 lets make something clear,  a escrow/title company can disperse the funds, the doesn't mean the the seller/sellers have the "check in hand"!!
a property can be recorded and the "keys" given to the buyer before the seller/sellers funds have been given to them "check in hand"!
dispersal is the allocation of funds!

in arizona when there is a meeting of minds;  a purchase contract signed by the buyer and signed by the seller,  then usually the purchasing real estate agent  "opens escrow "!!  the earnest money check is usually used for this!  an escrow receipt is issued!!
there are a zillion factors to a closing,  opening escrow is just the start!  there are cash deals,  finance deals,  owner carry backs, balloon payments,  ect.!!  loan approval for the buyer,  escrow funding,  seller lien pay offs,  real estate commissions,  ect;! 

i generalized,  just as you have!

the point i am trying to make is legal recourse!
real estate agents (NOB) if they are realtors, carry "errors and omission insurance" ( not all real estate agents are realtors)  "legal recourse"
earnest money deposited with escrow company.  "legal recourse"
escrow/title company, "title insurance policy".  "legal recourse"




Last edited on Sun Aug 21st, 2016 08:49 am by frankiej

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Frankie, thank you for the lesson in Real Estate 101.
I did not realize that you are a realtor in the state of Arizona. I have to disagree with much of the information you have provided.

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long time resident wrote: Frankie, A property in the state of Arizona is not recorded until all monies have been received for the sale of the property., and all funds have been dispersed. At the time of recordation, the keys are given to the buyer. This usually takes place in the same day, if the closing is in the morning. Recordation of a title can not be done after 4 in the afternoon.
LTR,  i have had the privilege to have participated in well over 1000 closings!  many where mine personally or that of my construction company!  i was a licensed  real estate agent in the state of arizona for over 33 years!you can disagree all you want,  i have the experience of those closings under my belt!
your first sentence is extremely deceiving, and it discredits your opinion!  i clearly explain how money can be left on the table!!  balloon payments, owner carry backs, ect.
this isn't about  real estate 101 , it is about the vulnerability of the buyer and seller here without those services!!

Last edited on Sun Aug 21st, 2016 06:04 pm by frankiej

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Bickering belongs on the other board. It does not matter how things are done in Arizona or anywhere else in the US. It seems to me the issue is safety, can you buy property here and be relatively sure you can get most of your investment back. Some people say you should not invest anything here you can't walk away from. If that were really true no reasonable person would buy a house here. The vast majority of property that is bought with an existing trust and has a new trust put in place is sold without a hitch down the road. There are some examples to the contrary that are interesting and colorful but do not represent the majority.

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richd,  i agree with you 100%!!  the thread was about the pitfalls of buying certain properties here in mexico!
it is all about security!
i was only offering what security means NOB!
you can buy property in mexico using a few certain NOB title companies!  i did when i purchased my home here 15 years ago.  at that time i used "fidelity financial global solutions",  head quartered in NY,NY!! 
using a NOB title company is more security than what is offered here!

Last edited on Sun Aug 21st, 2016 06:06 pm by frankiej

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purchasing real property anywhere and especially in foreign counties is nothing i would recommend to the inexperienced and faint hearted! 
if you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch! 
2 very referable NOB title companies issuing title insurance here in mexico are;
First American title company
Stewart title company

Last edited on Sun Aug 21st, 2016 06:10 pm by frankiej

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frankiej wrote: purchasing real property anywhere and especially in foreign counties is nothing i would recommend to the inexperienced and faint hearted! 
if you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch! 
2 very referable NOB title companies issuing title insurance here in mexico are;
First American title company
Stewart title company
was my post a little harsh?  think of it as though love!!  you can prevent much of the bad experiences buying real property,  simply by doing some home work prior to making your offer!
* select a good real estate agent, one with a good record
* find out about the options for a notario 
* buying an existing home,  have a home inspection
* buying a lot and planning to build;  shop your contractor options,  see what they have built,  talk to the people they built for
* open a bank account;  dollar/peso fluctuate 
* more security, call one of the NOB title companies,  ask all the questions you have for concern
* learn some spanish
San Carlos is in a buyers market,  there are a lot of good deals out there waiting for you!!!!!

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To the best of my understanding those who live in La Manga must pay their concession fees now. Some families do pay some don't. No one in La Manga can sell their property to a third party. They can renew their federal concessions but do not own the land out right and can not legally sell any of it.

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The Mexican coastal Federal Zone extends 20 meters above the mean high tide line as defined by a survey performed by the Federal Zone authorities. The width of any given FZ is also defined by the FZ authorities and usually the width of an adjacent platted lot, but not always as seen at Charley's Rock and three of the La Manga FZ concessions that I am aware of.

At La Manga, most of the houses on the FZ do not have FZ concessions and as we readily see when driving to Doña Rosita's restaurant, extend way further back than the 20 meters above mean high tide FZ definition. In fact they have established a school and a couple of churches way above the FZ! These people have established possession, and in Mexico established possession can (and in this case I think will) become a "right". As such, it will also become negotiable. So IMO,the situation is going to have to go into arbitration. So... vamos a ver!

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Even when you have done everything right you can still fall victim to land fraud thanks to rampant corruption. Right now 4,000 families in Veracruz look like victims of land fraud involving the brothers of the real land owner as well as the state assets office, 11 notaries and the land registry office staff. 

http://mexiconewsdaily.com/news/4000-owners-victims-of-veracruz-land-fraud/

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I don't know, but I'd say it was the first Notary in the chain of Notaries that didn't perform the required due diligence. That it went on for so long is incredibly suspicious!! and that only one sister is owner of the ejido in question? Hmmm........... Something ain't right here!!

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Richard, nothing in that article indicated that it was ejido land. The owner left the country and her brothers stole her land and sold it without her knowing. She must not have returned to that area for some time as it was thirty years later that she is filing criminal charges and suing to get paid for her stolen property. I don't have any details but I have heard of more than a couple of similar land grabs and attempted land grabs right here in the San Carlos/Guaymas area. I am sure you have too!

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I have heard of several. And personally know of others.
Curious why the sister waited until the property was developed. Seems that 30 years is a very long time, considering they are family.



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