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 Moderated by: bartmanaz Page:  First Page Previous Page  1  2  3  4  5  6  Next Page Last Page  
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 Posted: Mon Aug 14th, 2017 04:31 pm
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Hook
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Richard Baca wrote: I still say that the dismal fishing has more to do with the seiners and long liners operating outside of the 12 mile limit. The Mexican Navy has one fairly modern frigate in Guaymas, but that's not nearly enough oversight even if they could legally intercept outside of the 12 mile line. What to do? I dunno, does anyone have a viable solution/suggestion?
Richard, fixing it would require fixing corruption in Mexico. Is there a solution for that? 

The Mexican Navy is largely "hands off" on this because it is the purview of SEMARNAT  or PESCA, or whomever is responsible for the fisheries, at the federal level. Unless those agencies report a violation to them, the Navy has no way of knowing what vessel is fishing legally or illegally. Sometimes the Navy gets involved;  probably when PESCA realizes that said vessel did not pay them to look the other way, while they fish commercially for dorado or billfish (which is completely illegal). Or sometimes they will ask a sportfisher to produce their fishing license. But it's rare.

YES, THERE MUST BE COMMERCIAL BILLFISHING GOING ON! How does it appear on so many menus? Same reason dorado does. Illegal commercial fishing.

Money corrupts. It takes dedication to the ideals of management, THAT MANY COUNTRIES LIKE COSTA RICA OR PANAMA POSSESS, to fix it. Mexico has always been considered the most corrupt Latin American country. It's become so cultural.


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 Posted: Mon Aug 14th, 2017 04:56 pm
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frankiej
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where is green peace?

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 Posted: Mon Aug 14th, 2017 05:40 pm
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Hook
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It's a bad pun, but I suspect that Greenpeace has bigger fish to fry. Or, they are aware of the intransigence of the Mexican Government, when it comes to corruption, and it's a hopeless cause. They cant man enough boats to deter the illegal fishing. No, the solution must come from the Mexican Government. For that to happen would probably take political pressure from outside Mexico.


It's really so sad. This was once probably the greatest collection of marine species on the entire planet. Costeau rightfully called it "the world's aquarium".


The Mexican Government allowed it to be destroyed in about 40-50 years. It probably still could be called that, into the 60s. And, yet, even after that, the fishing was still incredible. But real old timers like Cannon and Tom Miller and others saw significant declines in the 70s and 80s. You overcatch sardines and shrimp and the whole ecosystem is brought to its knees.

No one EVER thought that a fish as prolific at reproducing as dorado would EVER be threatened. But that's where we are. They might never actually be EXTINCT, because it's hard to track the last dorado down like a land bird like the dodo bird.


I really feel the only hope is an outright ban on fishing, WITH ENFORCEMENT, of the entire Sea. Of course, that would kill me........but I am dying a slow death because of the lack of fish, anyway. My fishing memories in the Sea only go back to the 80s.

Last edited on Mon Aug 14th, 2017 05:41 pm by Hook

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 Posted: Mon Aug 14th, 2017 06:32 pm
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Richard Baca
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Hook, Frankie and others, SEMARNAT and PESCA are responsible for fishing WITHIN the 12 mile territorial limit (from both sides of the Gulf). It's the Mexican Navy that patrols the international waters of the Gulf and that's a legal grey area due to the Worldwide legal status of the 200 mile "economic zone" claimed by some countries. In other words, if the Mexican Navy intercepts a long liner in the international waters of the Gulf, what are they able to do?


As for SEMARNAT and PESCA inside of the 12 mile limit there is very little enforcement. Just think of how many sports fishermen and women actually EVER get a valid fishing license even though it is required!? Corruption? Yeah it's suspected, but within the 12 mile limit, who is paying and for what? We can all speculate but hard facts are difficult to come by.

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 Posted: Mon Aug 14th, 2017 06:38 pm
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frankiej
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who owns the long liners and where are they from?

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 Posted: Mon Aug 14th, 2017 06:52 pm
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bombero
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Research and read to your hearts discontent:

https://www.google.com/search?site=&source=hp&q=long+liners+in+the+sea+of+cortez&oq=lon&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.35i39k1l2j0i67k1l2.499.889.0.3933.4.3.0.0.0.0.123.357.0j3.3.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..1.3.356.0..0j0i131k1.2Eu8QDUFOXE

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 Posted: Mon Aug 14th, 2017 07:35 pm
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Richard Baca
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Thanks Bombero; that pretty much details the dilemma of the longliners vs. the commercial fishing within the 12 mile limit vs. the international zone. It also puts forth Mexico's intent to make the entire Sea of Cortez open to "legal" sports fishing. The huge number of pangas fishing for subsistence as well as for sale to restaurants are a cultural phenomenon that I don't think can be regulated any more than making all sports fishermen and women get licenses. How many pangeros do you think have PESCA licenses? There is spot checking for things like turtle catch and shrimp/lobster catch during spawning season, but it's spotty at best. I know of a panga crew of three that did jail time for a turtle in their panga, and another person caught selling lobster our of season here in SC.

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 Posted: Mon Aug 14th, 2017 08:11 pm
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RichD
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I would offer that even longliners and panga fishermen have a minor impact on dorado compared to the sardine boats. No bait, no fish. Pacific sardine populations have crashed. Will Mexico ban sardine fishing? Not likely.

http://oceana.org/press-center/press-releases/west-coast-commercial-sardine-fishery-closed-third-consecutive-year

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 Posted: Mon Aug 14th, 2017 09:13 pm
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Jimmy
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Even though I have, disappointedly, accepted the fact that I must observe the demise of life in the Ocean. It makes me Madd as Hell that they are being fished Out by Self Serving Commercial Gluttons who are intent on grabbing the Last Fish in the Ocean for themselves.


Its all about the Money! But mostly, too many mouths to feed.


We are living in a unique time-The End Time. If you live another 30 years (Me maybe 20) and we see the end to sea life, (2050-As stated in the Stanford Study) what else will we see an end of.


Overpopulation and Greed.
I see the Earth today as an orange with mold. It doesn't take long for the mold to devour the Orange.

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 Posted: Mon Aug 14th, 2017 10:58 pm
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JZ
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Jimmy wrote: Even though I have, disappointedly, accepted the fact that I must observe the demise of life in the Ocean. It makes me Madd as Hell that they are being fished Out by Self Serving Commercial Gluttons who are intent on grabbing the Last Fish in the Ocean for themselves.


Its all about the Money! But mostly, too many mouths to feed.


We are living in a unique time-The End Time. If you live another 30 years (Me maybe 20) and we see the end to sea life, (2050-As stated in the Stanford Study) what else will we see an end of.


Overpopulation and Greed.
I see the Earth today as an orange with mold. It doesn't take long for the mold to devour the Orange.


Just admit it, you want the future to be crappy so you can say how great it was in your day.


Last edited on Mon Aug 14th, 2017 11:51 pm by JZ

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 Posted: Mon Aug 14th, 2017 11:43 pm
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Jimmy
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JZ I don't understand why you decided to Cyber Bully me.  Kino


 

Last edited on Tue Aug 15th, 2017 12:17 am by Jimmy

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 Posted: Tue Aug 15th, 2017 03:58 am
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Richard Baca
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Just ignore him Jimmy, he is obviously one of those with nothing better to do than read what his brain rattled! Causing others discomfort anonymously is a sign of a disturbed person.

As for that dire prediction of depleted of eatable fisheries after 2050 I don't agree, and the reason I don't agree is that we have the example of The Mediterranean Sea. The Med is a closed body of water with only a small ingress and egress. It has been fished for basically ALL of recorded history and yet continues to produce. Our oceans are vast; some 75% of the Earth's surface, so though we have a few examples of diminished fisheries like our Gulf of California and the Sea of Japan, the planet, methinks, is gonna make it!

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 Posted: Tue Aug 15th, 2017 02:53 pm
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Hook
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Richard, after having vacationed a bit in Spain and Greece, I can say that there is little fish of any commercial value left in the Mediterranean. Most all the swordfish and tuna you see on the menus is from elsewhere. They will still find the occasional sardine school and hidden octopus, but, unless they declare a moratorium on fishing, it is probably as doomed as the Sea of Cortez. On bodies of water so bounded by land, it's easy for commercials to lay lines across their only avenue of escape.


It's been like this for a long time. Here is a Nat Geo article from 2012.


https://voices.nationalgeographic.org/2012/03/02/overfishing-leaves-much-of-mediterranean-a-dead-sea-study-finds/

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 Posted: Tue Aug 15th, 2017 04:53 pm
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Guido
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The planet will make it,we won't. Watch George Carlin, climate change on utube.

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 Posted: Tue Aug 15th, 2017 05:50 pm
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Richard Baca
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Thank you Hook. Yes, it's spotty, but given the thousands of years of fishing, there are still fish there. Not everywhere as you point out though. It seems that many littoral regions with large human populations are causing overfishing problems. Not so here though, because we only have two significant cities on the whole Gulf of California, Guaymas/Empalme and La Paz. So the problem in the Gulf has to be longliners and seiners. It matters not that they are Mexican or Japanese; IMO, the Mexican government has to police the Gulf asserting its 200 mile "economic zone". Just look at the illegal fishing in the Northern Gulf where the vaquita and totoaba are near extinction! I think that it's due to woefully inadequate policing. And it's not like they didn't know it was happening. John Steinbeck mentions a weird encounter in Bahia Los Angeles in 1939! And a visit to a Japanese factory ship just outside of Guaymas also in 1939! It's time for the Mexican government to step up to the plate!

Last edited on Tue Aug 15th, 2017 06:20 pm by

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 Posted: Tue Aug 15th, 2017 06:14 pm
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johnmoore
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I wrote earlier, that 20 plus yrs ago one could fish and catch responsibly as much fish as they wanted, almost daily. Then almost overnight, it was gone.....the long liners had devastated the Sea. It was incredible, how fast and complete this happened. Will it resurge, has it resurged, at all? I know the pods of dolphin are down, the multitudes of birds feeding as the larger fish force bait to the surface are rarely seen. Is the shrimp business as strong as it once was?? Not rhetorical, want to know.

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 Posted: Tue Aug 15th, 2017 07:04 pm
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Richard Baca
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Johnmoore, I remember those days and remember the wild schools of skipjack that were sometimes a nuisance. How I wish we had them back now! Then we had the invasion of Humboldt squid, and I think they had some to do with the decimation of the pelagic fish population too. Anyway, I hope the Mexican government steps in and does something. The shrimp industry seems to be surviving though.

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 Posted: Tue Aug 15th, 2017 09:57 pm
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Jimmy
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I think, I think, I think. 


As an educated individual I would prefer to ask what the Scientists who have studied these things for many years as their profession Think.


"I Think"......That folks should study what the attachments in this Thread have to say


 



 

Last edited on Tue Aug 15th, 2017 10:03 pm by Jimmy

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 Posted: Wed Aug 16th, 2017 01:38 am
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Hook
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The explosion of the Humboldt squid were probably due to the commercials taking their natural predators in large numbers. Maybe sharks, maybe large tunas. Then, the commercials took large numbers of the Humboldt squid. Now, they are rare here. It could be cyclical........but the actions of the commercials are, too. They overfish whatever is available.


Nothing much of commercial value is left except for billfish. For one of the rare times, I agree with Vince. The billfish are probably next. They have removed the dorado, the sharks, the large tunas, the totuava, etc.


Or maybe, with the recent resurgence of the tortugas, they will go after those, again. Why not? There is no enforcement to speak of.

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 Posted: Wed Aug 16th, 2017 01:44 am
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Hook
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Richard Baca wrote: Thank you Hook. Yes, it's spotty, but given the thousands of years of fishing, there are still fish there. Not everywhere as you point out though. It seems that many littoral regions with large human populations are causing overfishing problems. Not so here though, because we only have two significant cities on the whole Gulf of California, Guaymas/Empalme and La Paz. So the problem in the Gulf has to be longliners and seiners. It matters not that they are Mexican or Japanese; IMO, the Mexican government has to police the Gulf asserting its 200 mile "economic zone". Just look at the illegal fishing in the Northern Gulf where the vaquita and totoaba are near extinction! I think that it's due to woefully inadequate policing. And it's not like they didn't know it was happening. John Steinbeck mentions a weird encounter in Bahia Los Angeles in 1939! And a visit to a Japanese factory ship just outside of Guaymas also in 1939! It's time for the Mexican government to step up to the plate!
The Mexican government HAS stepped up to the plate.
But the plate is being served by monied commercial fishing interests. And they are not in the best interest of the Sea. 
Ho hum, why even discuss problems where the solution involves a curbing of corruption in Mexico? Its like hoping the cartels will go away. Money will find a way.

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