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 Moderated by: bartmanaz Page:  First Page Previous Page  1  2  3  4  Next Page Last Page  
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Paradise Canyon Ranch will amaze you!  Rate Topic 
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 Posted: Mon Aug 8th, 2016 05:09 am
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Richard Baca
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Mana: 
The Santa Clara wells that supply SC are sufficient with current pumps to supply a city of 30,000 according to COAPAES, the original developers of the resource. Didja'll notice that when CEA took over (the State entity) they started that summer "check the aquifer levels BS"? Yeah right, "check the well levels", HA! Methinks someone over there found a way to sell the surplus water for irrigation purposes. Ya'll notice how summertime pressures are always low and sometimes nonexistent? Yepper, I don't think there's any shortage of water, just a shortage for SC because the crop irrigation is more lucrative at the well head while our water bill payments go to the State!
As for water on the West side, yes it's there, and if the wells are drilled in arroyos higher up on the slope there won't be any saline intrusion. The problem though, is the legal one. The CEA (the State permitting authority) makes it very difficult.   

Last edited on Mon Aug 8th, 2016 05:11 am by

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 Posted: Mon Aug 8th, 2016 05:39 am
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frankiej
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Mana: 
don,  you started a good and interesting thread here!! 
water seems to be the main concern !  is there enough water as richard states?  who really knows,  we do know about the current and past water issues.  lots of great speculation on solving the water issue,  beau's water desalinization plant,  bullshippers mini wells. 
lets not forget there are 2 projects projected for the end of the waterline.  1) the one that started this thread   2)  the project bought by the coople brothers which was the old club med, later called paridiso.
a new golf course and a new resort both requiring major demand on the water!

Last edited on Mon Aug 8th, 2016 03:43 pm by frankiej

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 Posted: Mon Aug 8th, 2016 03:48 pm
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long time resident
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Collecting rain water has become quite popular in Arizona. From just a couple inches of rain, one can collect a very large amount of water, and the storage containers, look similar to our tinacos. I see none of this south of the border. We will see a lot more harvesting of rain water in our future., with the direction we are taking. I have heard of another project going in north of La Manga, by a different group. They are talking about putting in hotels, restaurants, and a residential area.

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 Posted: Mon Aug 8th, 2016 03:51 pm
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Wy Ynot
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Mana: 
Frankie, maybe try another site on pipe diameter and volumes and capacities. Yes, as you say, diameter, lift, suction, source/pool, pump size and horsepower, hydrostatic and multiple variables all come into play. BUT a 2" id water pipe will furnish much more than 50 gpm depending pump depth and pressure. Not an argument at all though, simply an observation. Many rural water wells in the US are 4"casing with a much better size being 5 1/2". As you state, water out depends on water in and if you have no entry into the well bore, you simply and  definitely have no out. Ron

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 Posted: Mon Aug 8th, 2016 05:42 pm
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frankiej
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Mana: 
ron, i was trying not to ruffle feathers!
apples with apples oranges with oranges!
here are some statistics; southwestern golf courses can use from 100,000 - 1,000,000 gallons of water a week during the summer months. the variance is dependent on rain fall and landscaping! OUCH!!!
are 2" pump wells practical for a 18 hole golf course?
is a desalinization plant practical and affordable?
these are obvious questions with obvious answers!
  if your answer is the developer has deep pockets,  developers move on and the lot and home owners are left with the on going expenses!
how will these home and lot owners organize? probably an HOA!to my knowledge most if not all HOA's in san carlos are dysfunctional!  i can say this with experience as i am a member of 3!
is it possible to have 2 maybe 3 or more new functioning subdivisions out here?  YES!!!!  
this would take organization and cooperation of the developers!
desalination plants and electrical substations to run them are expensive!  if the costs where divided and services provided for all, it could be a practical and affordable venture!

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 Posted: Mon Aug 8th, 2016 06:35 pm
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Bullshipper
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A well is drilled then tested to see how much water it will produce. Then the pump is sized to pump that amount of water.
You could have a 12" casing that only produces 30 gallons a minute, and therefore you would use a 1.5" pump, type depending on the depth of water table. Then you pump continuously day and night to deliver or store that, and water keeps coming into your casing as the water level in the casing is lower than the water that surrounds it. If you turn off the pump, the water around the casing, continues on its path to the sea where it is lost.
50 gpm pump delivers 72,000 gallons in a day, and a person usually needs around 50 gallons per person to run his house. So the puny 50 gpm pump will be enough for around 1440 people.

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 Posted: Mon Aug 8th, 2016 07:08 pm
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frankiej
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Mana: 
Bullshipper wrote: A well is drilled then tested to see how much water it will produce. Then the pump is sized to pump that amount of water.

50 gpm pump delivers 72,000 gallons in a day, and a person usually needs around 50 gallons per person to run his house. So the puny 50 gpm pump will be enough for around 1440 people.
this not the ogalala aquifer!  it is a basin the area of about 8/12 square miles, at best.  
the question is if there is sufficient long term water?
for hundreds if not thousands of years the area in question had a natural alluvial fan,  allowing the water to seep into the soil.
after hurricane jimena  this alluvial fan was breached.  now instead of the water pooling and seeping into the ground it flows directly to the sea!
bullshipper this is not about you and i debating the efficiency of a 2 inch pump!  
it is about ability to supply water to a golf course!!!
the difference is micro and macro water management!

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 Posted: Mon Aug 8th, 2016 07:30 pm
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Wy Ynot
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Mana: 
I think you both are on the right track, there is just not enough water down below to support much more than a few gallons a minute on a small pump private basis.. "If" "We" here in San Carlos had a storage system to hold the volume produced in a 24 hour period from the existing wells we would probably all have water each day all day even with the leaking, aged, shallow and brittle small diameter pipe in the distribution system we are using now. A nearby golf course sharing water with San Carlos would destroy us in a short period of time. It would need it's own desalplant or personal cloud system?? Ron

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 Posted: Mon Aug 8th, 2016 08:16 pm
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RichD
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Good discussion. Any buyer of these lots that plunks down the cash BEFORE a desal plant is built deserves to lose his money. Look at the failed projects of Costa Bella and Villa Serena standing as eyesores and a reminder of how foolish it is to buy property in Mexico based on promises of future improvements.

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 Posted: Mon Aug 8th, 2016 10:37 pm
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bartmanaz
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FrankieJ

My son works at a southern AZ golf course and the actual numbers look more like 100,000 to 1,000,000 gallons per DAY, not per week, depending on course design and acreage under irrigation. And I don't know any on the low end of this range. USGA estimates 80 acres of a normal 18 hole course are irrigated. FYI

Bart

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 Posted: Mon Aug 8th, 2016 11:40 pm
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Bullshipper
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Reverse osmosis plants need sand filtration, diatomaceous earth filtration, roll filtration, acid treatment for bacterial and pH adjustment, then you need to pump 3 gallons of filtered water to around 400 psi of pressure (think pumping 920 feet straight up) to get about 1 gallon on pure water, discharging 2 gallons of more mineralized water somewhere like the sea. Units that produce 5 gpm of product can easily cost $50K, and it costs about 6 cents a gallon of product. This adds up to about about $4K per day to produce the same amount of water that a 50 gpm well could produce for about $1.50. I therefore want to stress that a desalination plant to irrigate a golf course, or even a neighborhood is the least attractive option available to a developer or its residents. I would also stress again there is plenty of water in the aquifers around SC.

Even places like Israel that get much less rain than SC support large populations from a network of small wells and storage facilities that are tightly spaced along their coast to capture what is available.

Believe me folks, shallow wells are very cheap and inexpensive to run, and are the most productive investment the community can make if they want to grow. Following that, is water treatment to recapture up to 80% of the water we use to reuse over and over again, which can also be processed for pennies a ton, not pennies per gallon like desalinization.

I have engineered, installed and operated one large  reverse osmosis  system several well and reverse osmosis systems for my homes, fish hatcheries, ranches, farms, mines and small towns over the last 40 years SC has not scratched the surface of this long term renewable resource that is running downhill to the sea under our feet.

Last edited on Mon Aug 8th, 2016 11:46 pm by Bullshipper

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 Posted: Tue Aug 9th, 2016 12:54 am
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frankiej
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bullshipper, you sound like an article from " mother earth news",  lots of "tecno babble"!!  you are missing the point with your statistics! 
 i support your views in micro management of water!  this however is a golf course and macro water management!  

i googled water usage for southwestern golf courses and came up with 100,000 to 1,000,000 gals. of water a week!  in the practical and real world setting bart's son works at a golf course and states the real usage is a 100,000/1,000,000 gals. daily!!  i accept and believe this as a real world statistic!
daily or weekly either statistic will be a hard sell to the tax paying water consuming communities of san carlos and guaymas!  seeing potable water used for the needs of a few, and the many of guaymas never having water 24/7!! 
in the real world;  the S/W  USA and all of the north east and west of mexico have and will be having more water consumption issues! 
 these issues on both sides of the border are debated by hydrologist and geologists with doctoral degrees!
so when you say "believe me folks"  i am sorry i tend to believe them more!!

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 Posted: Tue Aug 9th, 2016 01:04 am
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Wy Ynot
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Mana: 
Good information and well stated. RO units are expensive to run and need almost constant monitoring (manpower). Diesel generator or electric very expensive here. Bullshipper, if you run for president up there, you will have my vote, LOL. Ron

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 Posted: Tue Aug 9th, 2016 01:15 am
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frankiej
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as a developer if you went to apply for permits for a community of 1,440 as you state bullshipper . in the states of arizona, california, nevada, new mexico and texas and told them you statistics for providing water for that community of 1,440 people. they would ask you what your are smoking and give you a copy of the regulations for water consumption and politely ask you to leave!

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 Posted: Tue Aug 9th, 2016 02:08 am
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kiteboarder
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I think some of you missed post #14. They ARE going to build a desalination plant. I checked on the price per lot this morning. $700,000 to $1,000,000 per lot! How many do you want?
Also,  Bullshipper - did you write that San Carlos gets lots of rain? It gets an average of less than 9" a year of rainfall. The surrounding area gets a bit more but that is all we get on this side of the mountains. 

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 Posted: Tue Aug 9th, 2016 03:08 am
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Bullshipper
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frankiej wrote: bullshipper, you sound like an article from " mother earth news",  lots of "tecno babble"!!  you are missing the point with your statistics! 
 i support your views in micro management of water!  this however is a golf course and macro water management!  

i googled water usage for southwestern golf courses and came up with 100,000 to 1,000,000 gals. of water a week!  in the practical and real world setting bart's son works at a golf course and states the real usage is a 100,000/1,000,000 gals. daily!!  i accept and believe this as a real world statistic!
daily or weekly either statistic will be a hard sell to the tax paying water consuming communities of san carlos and guaymas!  seeing potable water used for the needs of a few, and the many of guaymas never having water 24/7!! 
in the real world;  the S/W  USA and all of the north east and west of mexico have and will be having more water consumption issues! 
 these issues on both sides of the border are debated by hydrologist and geologists with doctoral degrees!
so when you say "believe me folks"  i am sorry i tend to believe them more!!
Frank, I never stated anything about consumption rates for golf courses, you are getting confused again. Golf courses are usually designed to repacture water that is used for reuse, placing lakes around the course where the irrigation water drains to them for repumping. So in this example, we lose about 15% to the atmosphere when its dry + the amount of wayter that escapes the lakes to be made up by wells..In terms of supply, the Santa Clara aquifier is fed by ground water coming down to the ocean from open ground and mountains east of Hermosillo. A well we placed up there 25 years ago has been pumping about 400 gpm day and night continuously, and the Ford Assembly plant has another well close to it that pumps more. This corridor that is over 5000 square miles gets an average of 17" of annual rainfall, being 30+ inches in the mountains down to 9 inches where it ends close to Guaymas. Here is more conveniet to use acre feet of water to quantify the amount added to the existing water in this deep aquifier to begin with. So, if 5000 square miles of ground water sounds like a micro amount to you, then we will have to agree to disagree again.

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 Posted: Tue Aug 9th, 2016 03:12 am
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Bullshipper
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kiteboarder wrote: I think some of you missed post #14. They ARE going to build a desalination plant. I checked on the price per lot this morning. $700,000 to $1,000,000 per lot! How many do you want?
Also,  Bullshipper - did you write that San Carlos gets lots of rain? It gets an average of less than 9" a year of rainfall. The surrounding area gets a bit more but that is all we get on this side of the mountains. 

Yes, I have gotten sidetracked, and I am sorry. The price of these lots and there idea really seems far fetched. But, I am sure Sr Cabrillo is glad to hear that lots will now go for these prices. LOL.

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 Posted: Tue Aug 9th, 2016 03:41 am
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frankiej
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bullshipper, take the 2 p's out of bullshipper and add 2 t's , what do you have!  i am not confused,  read the all the posts!  it is you who has the hard sell on your ideology!  my post #15  i address the "desal" plant.  i mention several times in several posts trying to be PC that we are talking about a golf course!  it was you who maintained your hard sell on your ideology!  so the real question is why!  
hermosillo is 85/90 miles north of guaymas. the mountains east of hermosillo  are 30/40 miles away.  they are part of an entirely different aquifer,  which drains west towards kino bay!  east of guaymas is the san jose aquifer!  northeast of emplame is the ortiz aquifer! this can all be verified by "google earth"!!!!!!! you will see the drainage patterns! 
should we ad the 2 t's?????
P.S.  i mention a golf course in post's #'s 3,7,8,22,25,27,32!!
there is not a stream or river that runs 365 days a years for a 50 mile radius of guaymas!  how can you justify a 17" annual rain fall and 30 plus inches in the mountains??????


Last edited on Tue Aug 9th, 2016 03:56 am by frankiej

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 Posted: Tue Aug 9th, 2016 03:52 am
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handlebars
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A golf course here in Phoenix requires 4 to 5 ACRE FEET of water a year,,,A person has to think agricultural when it comes to large tracts (80 acres) The best question to ask is if there are maps of successful wells and their individual outputs available for the aquifers in the area? In Az the state has every well permitted and mapped

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 Posted: Tue Aug 9th, 2016 03:59 am
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frankiej
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Mana: 
thanks handlebars, i elude to that in my post #34!!!!

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